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Recording bass guitar Issues with Ampeg SVX

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Recording bass guitar Issues with Ampeg SVX

Postby Studio Digitalik » Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:21 pm

I'm trying to record a bass guitar for a Progressive Metal Song and Everything is doing right! The bass sounds good except for one thing. When it comes to play certain notes the 100HZ is boosting to much. If I dim this freq, the bass sounds flat and if I let it like this, I have to lower the volume of the bass and it causes the rest of the bass line to be to low. When i try certain type of compression the result is not necessary better. So at this point, Do i have to automate the volume of the bass?


Thanks to every one for your help, it is very appreciated!!

Louis

PS: Sorry for the english
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Re: Recording bass guitar Issues with Ampeg SVX

Postby Surf Whammy » Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:18 am

Studio Digitalik wrote:I'm trying to record a bass guitar for a Progressive Metal Song and Everything is doing right! The bass sounds good except for one thing. When it comes to play certain notes the 100HZ is boosting to much. If I dim this freq, the bass sounds flat and if I let it like this, I have to lower the volume of the bass and it causes the rest of the bass line to be to low. When i try certain type of compression the result is not necessary better. So at this point, Do i have to automate the volume of the bass?


QUESTION: Have you calibrated the full-range studio monitors in your mixing and mastering room, where "full-range" maps to a flat response from 20-Hz to 20,000-Hz?

The reason I ask is that if the room has a hot spot at 100-Hz, then it will amplify that pitch and make it sound "boomy" . . .

Mixing and mastering with headphones will not work, so you need to mix and master with calibrated full-range studio monitors, and you might need to do some acoustic treatments for your listening room . . .

Lots of FUN! :D

P. S. If you have T-RackS 3.5 Deluxe, you can adjust the electric bass track with the Linear Phase Equalizer if necessary, but it really depends on several factors, including what the other instruments are doing at the time . . .

And if you need a full-range studio monitor system, you will find some useful information in my topic "The Fabulous Affordable Studio Monitor System" in this section of the IK Multimedia FORUM, which includes a detailed explanation of the reason why it needs to be a calibrated full-range studio monitor system, where the basic rule is that if your studio monitor system is not accurate, then you cannot trust what you hear, for sure . . .

The Fabulous Affordable Studio Monitor System (IK Multimedia FORUM)

For sure! :ugeek:
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Re: Recording bass guitar Issues with Ampeg SVX

Postby Studio Digitalik » Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:36 pm

For the monitor and the acoustic of the room I already have M-audio monitor BX8A and a london 12 acoustic kit.
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Re: Recording bass guitar Issues with Ampeg SVX

Postby Surf Whammy » Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:05 pm

Studio Digitalik wrote:For the monitor and the acoustic of the room I already have M-audio monitor BX8A and a london 12 acoustic kit.


QUESTION: Have you calibrated the studio monitors to your mixing and mastering room?

The ARC System (IK Multimedia) is one way to do the calibration . . .

The ARC System (IK Multimedia)

The reason I ask is that having "boominess" at a very specific frequency tends to be something that happens due to the acoustic behaviors of a room, although it could be specific to a particular bass guitar amplifier emulation . . .

Another possibility is to hear what the T-RackS 3.5 Deluxe Vintage Program Equalizer EQP-1A does in various settings, since it is very nice for bass guitar TONE . . .

In scientific pitch notation, 100-Hz is nearest to G2 (97.999-Hz) but also is near to G#2 (103.83-Hz), where the reference tuning pitch is "Concert A" (440-Hz) . . .

So, it might be a matter of the way the bass guitar or other instruments are tuned, and it could be one of the drums . . .

[NOTE: I use the drum tuning method recommended by Prof. Sound, and for the floor toms in my drumkit, this maps to tuning the higher of the two floor toms to A, so the "boominess" at 100-Hz could be due to the electric bass interacting with the drumkit if a floor tom is tuned to an odd pitch . . . ]

Prof. Sound's Drum Tuning Bible v3 -- PDF (451KB, approximately 52 pages)

Yet another possibility is to use the Opto-Compressor or one of the other compressors from T-RackS 3.5 Deluxe to do a bit of level smoothing . . .

And Wave Arts has a VST plug-in called "TrackPlug 5" that provides detailed control over frequency equalization, noise gating, and compressing . . .

TrackPlug 5 (Wave Arts)

I use TrackPlug 5 for particularly troublesome scenarios, since it is a multifunctional signal processor, and Wave Arts has another similar control that might work very nicely, since it works on bands or sections of an instrument's audio footprint, where each band or section can be adjusted differently . . .

MultiDynamics 5 (Wave Arts)

However, I tend to use MultiDynamics 5 as a last resort when nothing else appears to work, which makes TrackPlug 5 the more frequently used of the two Wave Arts plug-ins here in the sound isolation studio, and the general strategy here in the sound isolation studio is to use IK Multimedia VST plug-ins first but to use the Wave Arts plug-ins only when there is something unusual that needs special handling . . .

Lots of FUN! :ugeek:
Sinkhorn's Dilemma: Every paradox has at least one non-trivial solution!
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Re: Recording bass guitar Issues with Ampeg SVX

Postby Surf Whammy » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:01 pm

QUESTION: How are you determining that there is a problem at 100-Hz? By ear? By examining a real-time spectral meter?

THOUGHTS ON STUDIO MONITORS

As a bit of follow-up, I checked the specifications for the M-AUDIO Studiophile BX8a Deluxe - 130-watt Bi-amplified Studio Reference Monitors, and it is good that the frequency response is 40-Hz to 22,000-Hz, but the full-range of normal human hearing is 20-Hz to 20,000-Hz, which is fine at the high-end but not so good at the low-end . . .

Studiophile BX8a Deluxe - 130-watt Bi-amplified Studio Reference Monitors

However, the low-pitch "E" string on an electric bass at standard tuning (Concert A = 440-Hz) is 41.204-Hz, which maps nicely to the low-end of the frequency response being 40-Hz . . .

The very low bass frequencies are more focused on kick drums and other percussion stuff, but they are important . . .

And while the specified frequency response is 40-Hz to 22,000-Hz, this allows lower frequencies but just not at the same volume level, which is where calibrating can be helpful, although it depends on the way the calibrating is done . . .

From what I can determine by the specifications, these should be good studio monitors, and I like the lower range of the frequency response, but the strategy I use here in the sound isolation studio is based on focusing on the full-range aspect with specific attention to the basic principles of acoustic physics, where for low frequencies the fact is that deep bass maps to "big and heavy" woofers no matter how "big and heavy" is done, where it can be done with a 15" woofer, a pair of 12" woofers, or a set of 8" or 10" woofers, as is done in the classic Ampeg bass guitar loudspeaker cabinet, as well as with the now rare Fender Custom Shop Rumble Bass rig (a personal favorite) which was available for a few years in the late-1990s and has cabinets with four 10" loudspeakers, as well as a 300-watt vacuum-tube power amplifier that is mind-boggling and generates so much heat that it requires a set of high-power cooling fans . . .

The basis for the strategy I use here in the sound isolation studio is the fact that the folks who do sound reinforcement for musical groups tend to have a different perspective than musicians and singers, which maps generally to being concerned solely with acoustic physics, which curiously maps to DJ and PA loudspeaker systems (a) being better than everything, including so-called "studio monitors", and (b) vastly low prices, where the latter aspect is due to sound reinforcement folks generally having the view that musicians and singers have entirely too much self-esteem, often in the extreme, which is an abstruse way of explaining that promoting a guitar amplifier as being "fantastic" because Ace Frehley (KISS) or any other famous lead guitar players uses it is meaningless, because all that matters are the loudspeakers, cabinets, preamplifiers, and power amplifiers . . .

Consequently, my strategy is to use a pair Kustom KPC15P 15" Powered PA Speakers (purchased separately rather than as a pair, which for some puzzling reason saves approximately $50 [US] compared to the cost of a pair), which at present cost $130 (US) per loudspeaker and amplifier unit . . .

The specified frequency response is 60-Hz to 20,000-Hz, but since they are "big and heavy" and massively amplified, I run them at a very low volume and push the low frequency range downward, which at low volume levels does not cause a problem by damaging the 15" woofers, and this is possible in part because the sound isolation studio is approximately 6' wide by 7' tall and 12' long, which makes it similar to a walk-in closet with a low ceiling, hence two 100-watt amplified PA loudspeaker units are so overpowered that running them at full volume would cause irreparable hearing loss . . .

I have a NADY SPL Meter, and I use it to set the listening level in the range of 80 to 85 dB SPL, which is at the high-end of what is tolerable and conveniently maps to a nearly flat frequency response or "equal loudness curve" once the loudspeakers are calibrated . . .

All this stuff is explained in detail in my topic in this FORUM, and one of the stellar insights which appeared with a bit of serendipity is the vast importance of determining whether one is (a) a fundamental tone hearer or (b) an overtone hearer, where the former folks are the only ones who actually hear everything and are not easily fooled or mislead by the "Missing Fundamental" auditory illusion . . .

The Fabulous Affordable Studio Monitor System Project (IK Multimedia FORUM)

Missing Fundamental Auditory Illusion (wikipedia)

THOUGHTS ON ACOUSTIC TREATMENTS

I like the concept of the London 12 Acoustic Kit, for sure . . .

London 12 Room Kit (Primacoustic Acoustic Solutions)

For sure! :)

Another stellar technique is to get a few rolls of fiberglass insulation, which you leave rolled and put in the corners of the room, where they absorb excessive deep bass . . .

The key bit of information is that you need to check the acoustics of the room with microphones and calibrating equipment to determine precisely how the room is behaving, and this can be a bit complex, but the ARC System (IK Multimedia) is an affordable solution, and I use it here in the sound isolation studio . . .

But I also have a Behringer DEQ2496 Ultra-Curve Pro Mastering Processor, which I am planning to use sooner or later, since it works independently of the computer and Digital Audio Workstation (DAW) software, plus it has a calibration system and a matching calibrating microphone which curiously looks nearly identical to the calibrating microphone that comes with the ARC System, but it is tiny bit different, and so forth and so on . . .

The reason at present that I have not done a lot of the calibrating stuff is that the Kustom loudspeaker units already are reasonably flat, and I tend to be a bit lazy with respect to running cables and reading instruction manuals, but so what . . .

So what!

Another key aspect is that I designed the sound isolation studio specifically to have neutral acoustic behaviors . . .

SUMMARY

In some respects, I am a bit bored and and I like to write, but overall I am intrigued by the problem of a bit of "boominess" at 100-Hz, and these are a few more thoughts on possible explanations and solutions . . .

If you have T-RackS 3.5 Deluxe, I can provide some advice on different strategies for smoothing the frequency response of the bass guitar and Ampeg SVX emulation software, which certainly is one way to solve the problem, but this is something that happens in listening rooms which have "hot spots" . . .

Without doubt, you can use the T-RackS 3.5 Deluxe Linear Phase Equalizer to smooth the frequency response of the electric bass rig, and it is not difficult to do, since basically all you need to do is to use it as a parametric equalizer, where using the controls you create a "notch" centered on 100-Hz, which looks something like the following screen capture, which for reference has an exaggerated "notch" to make it easier to see . . .

[NOTE: I reduced the volume by -10 dB to make it easier to see the "notch", which is a lot, so in practice it probably only needs to be reduced by -0.5 to perhaps -3 dB, depending on several factors, and the width of the notch can be varied, as well . . . ]

Image
Linear Phase Equalizer ~ Detail ~ T-RackS 3.5 Deluxe (IK Multimedia)

SUGGESTION FOR AN EXPERIMENT

If you have a way to output a section of the electric bass track where the 100-Hz problem occurs, I can run it through some of the VST plug-ins I have here in the sound isolation studio to get more information, where (a) an AIFF, WAVE, or MP3 audio file will be fine for doing the experiment and (b) the notes can be a simple scale or whatever, with 30 seconds to 1 minute being a nice length, with a chromatic scale from the low-pitch "E" string to the "E" on the low-pitch "D" string will work nicely, although extending the scale to 5th fret of the low-pitch "g" string is better . . .

Another though comes to mind, which is that if you are playing a real electric bass and running its output signal to the computer, the problem might be simply a matter of pickup in the area of the low-pitch "A" string on the electric bass being too hot, which you probably can adjust by lowering the pickup or, if it has separate screws for string, then lowering the respective screw height . . .

Lots of FUN! :ugeek:
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Re: Recording bass guitar Issues with Ampeg SVX

Postby Studio Digitalik » Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:02 am

To determine that there's a problem around 100hz I lower the gain by about 12db and when I'm sweeping threw the frequency I noticed that around 100hz the boomy sound is less anoying.
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Re: Recording bass guitar Issues with Ampeg SVX

Postby Surf Whammy » Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:18 am

Studio Digitalik wrote:To determine that there's a problem around 100hz I lower the gain by about 12db and when I'm sweeping threw the frequency I noticed that around 100hz the boomy sound is less anoying.


QUESTION: Have you calibrated the studio monitors to the room?

Lots of FUN! :ugeek:
Sinkhorn's Dilemma: Every paradox has at least one non-trivial solution!
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Re: Recording bass guitar Issues with Ampeg SVX

Postby Studio Digitalik » Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:51 am

Not yet but I'll probably buy the ARC systeme as you suggested to me! thanks a lot
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Re: Recording bass guitar Issues with Ampeg SVX

Postby Studio Digitalik » Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:52 am

I quickly read all you wrote but this weekend I'll spend most of my time to studiy what you have explained to me I pretty sure it's gonna help me. Don't be shy if you have other tips that comes in your mind later (haha) I'll take all the help and I really appreciate all you did for me. I still need to read a lot about all the stuff I bought to get as efficient as possible. So again, thanks a lot and takre care

Louis-
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Re: Recording bass guitar Issues with Ampeg SVX

Postby Surf Whammy » Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:27 am

Surf Whammy wrote:QUESTION: Have you calibrated the studio monitors to the room?


Studio Digitalik wrote:Not yet but I'll probably buy the ARC systeme as you suggested to me! thanks a lot


I think this is an excellent strategy, and the ARC System will allow you to fine-tune your studio listening experience to make it as accurate as possible, for sure . . .

For sure! :)

Studio Digitalik wrote:I quickly read all you wrote but this weekend I'll spend most of my time to studiy what you have explained to me I pretty sure it's gonna help me. Don't be shy if you have other tips that comes in your mind later (haha) I'll take all the help and I really appreciate all you did for me. I still need to read a lot about all the stuff I bought to get as efficient as possible. So again, thanks a lot and takre care

Louis-


I listened to your song ("The present Moment") with headphones at the link you provided, and I am very impressed! :)

I like the stereo image when I listened with headphones, and the synthesizers in the background add an intriguing flavor. I also like the guitar chords and phrases, bass, and drumming, and the song has a nice mood, as well . . .

[NOTE: The drumming reminds me of Daniel Erlandsson (Arch Enemy), who is my favorite drummer. For reference, Arch Enemy is a Melodic Death Metal group, and your song has a similar sound, which makes it like Arch Enemy but with a synthesizer player, which is the intriguing aspect and is a bit like a blend of Styx for the synthesizers and Arch Enemy for the rhythm section and guitars . . . ]

Judging by the mix for "The present Moment", I think that you have a strong sense of the way a song needs to sound, and once you get the ARC System and do the calibration of your studio monitors to the acoustics of your studio I think that your songs will sound all the better . . .

And since you have T-RackS 3.5 Deluxe, you certainly can get the electric bass and Ampeg SVX under control, which should be easy to do with the Linear Phase Equalizer, which you can use as a separate VST plug-in on the electric bass track after you run it through the Ampeg SVX VST plug-in, where the general strategy is to use the Linear Phase Equalizer as if it were a parametric equalizer, which I suppose it is in one way or another . . .

[NOTE: I continue to think that the booming might be due to the room acoustics, which doing the ARC System calibration will correct, but if not then the Linear Phase Equalizer from T-RackS 3.5 Deluxe will provide a nice solution. And for reference "booming" is a low-frequency thing where the room resonates at one of the low frequencies, which causes the room to amplify that specific frequency or small range of frequencies . . . ]

A parametric equalizer is a bit more difficult to set, since as contrasted to a graphic equalizer you work with curves of different shapes rather than with vertical sliders for each band, but for purposes of controlling a bit of booming at a very specific frequency a parametric equalizer is easy to use, which certainly is the case with the Linear Phase Equalizer, since there are only three controls and a parameter to set (dB cut or boost, center frequency, and notch width, plus the shape of the curve), as shown in the screen capture from my previous post (see above) . . .

You might experiment with the Vintage Program Equalizer EQP-1A by placing it after the Linear Phase Equalizer in the chain on the electric bass track, where the specific use of the Vintage Program Equalizer EQP-1A will be to add a bit of what I call vacuum-tube "blur", with the preset "FATT-1A" being excellent for this purpose, although you might need to lower the default output level for the "FATT-1A" preset, since it might be a bit too hot at the "FATT-1A" default output setting (5.5) . . .

In terms of sequence, the first thing to do is to run the electric bass through the Ampeg SVX VST plug-in and then to run the output through Linear Phase Equalizer to handle the booming at 100-Hz. Once that is done, then run it through the Vintage Program Equalizer EQP-1A with the "FATT-1A" present but lower the output level, where the goal is to add a tiny bit of mostly subtle deep bass TONE and vacuum-tube "blur", which depending on terminology maps to a bit of deep bass "growl" and should have the curious consequence of adding a bit of synergistic punch to the double kick drums, where you can control the depth of the "growl" simply by adjusting the output level of the Vintage Program Equalizer EQP-1A, which is the only control you will need to adjust, since the "FATT-1A" preset is stellar for deep bass TONE . . .

QUESTION: Which operating system are you using (Mac or Windows), and which Digital Audio Workstation (DAW) application are you using?

Lots of FUN! :ugeek:
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Re: Recording bass guitar Issues with Ampeg SVX

Postby Studio Digitalik » Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:37 pm

Mac snow Leopard with cubase 6 and my sound card is a edirol UA-700 wich is kind of old. I also own a Korg D3200 but I rearlly use it
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Re: Recording bass guitar Issues with Ampeg SVX

Postby Surf Whammy » Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:38 pm

Studio Digitalik wrote:Mac snow Leopard with cubase 6 and my sound card is a edirol UA-700 wich is kind of old. I also own a Korg D3200 but I rearlly use it


Great! :)

I do everything on a 2.8-GHz 8-core Mac Pro running Mac OS X 10.7.3 (Lion) here in the sound isolation studio, but I use either Core Audio or a MOTU 828mk3 Hybrid FireWire audio interface . . .

Since we both are on the Mac, this makes it easier to exchange tips and techniques, although everything generally works the same on Windows machines . . .

Currently, I use Digital Performer 7.24 (MOTU) for the Digital Audio Workstation (DAW) application, and MOTU is releasing a 64-bit version of Digital Performer in the next few months . . .

However, I am pondering the idea of getting Logic Pro (Apple), since Apple has it on sale when it is purchased via the Mac App Store, and the intriguing aspect of Logic Pro for me is the fact that there is a way to do true stereo panning, as contrasted to using stereo "balance" controls in lieu of true panning, where for reference a stereo "balance" control looks similar to a true stereo panning control but it only controls the relative volume level of the left and right channels and does not allow one, for example, to move the left channel material to the right channel or vice-versa, which is vastly annoying, since panning is very important . . .

There probably is a way to do true stereo panning in the current version of Digital Performer 7, but I have not discovered how to do it, so my strategy at present is to do most of the instrumental work with IK Multimedia VSTi virtual instruments and music notation in NOTION 3 (Notion Music), where I can set the panning locations very precisely in the NOTION 3 Mixer, since the NOTION 3 Mixer has true stereo panning controls . . .

The strategy I use is to set the panning locations in NOTION 3 and then to ReWire the audio to Digital Performer 7.24, but for real instruments and singing I record on monaural tracks in Digital Performer 7.24 since monaural tracks have true panning controls, and if I need to work with a stereo image I clone the monaural tracks or run them through a "monaural-to-stereo" VST plug-in . . .

From what I have read about Logic Pro (Apple), there is a way to do true stereo panning, and I am intrigued by this possibility, since it appears to be easier than splitting a stereo track into two monaural tracks in Digital Performer . . .

Lots of FUN! :ugeek:
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Re: Recording bass guitar Issues with Ampeg SVX

Postby Surf Whammy » Sun Apr 15, 2012 6:09 pm

After pondering the "folddown" feature of Digital Performer 7.24 (MOTU) which makes it very easy to preview a stereo track in monaural--which I verified with MOTU Technical Support--I had the idea that it might make a bit of sense to explore the possibility that there is an easy way to do true stereo panning in Digital Performer 7.24, and with a bit of searching and reading I found a post in a music discussion that mentioned the Trim plug-in, so I tried it on a stereo track, and it makes it possible to do true stereo panning, which I was able to verify using the grand piano audio file I created in NOTION 3 (Notion Music) . . .

I was able to move the left channel to the extreme far-right and all points between, and I was able to more the right channel to the extreme far-left and all points between, for sure . . .

[NOTE: The Trim plug-in also makes it possible to apply various panning laws, which in turn makes it possible to do a bit of fine-tuning with respect to the perceived loudness of instruments and voices at different panning locations, which is important since the entire thing primarily is a logarithmic but the goal is to cause it to behave as if it were linear, where from a high-level perspective what you want is to be able to place an instrument or voice in a very specific position but in such a way that its loudness is consistent. In other words, you do not want the loudness of an instrument or voice to change simply because it is panned to a different location, which is where panning laws come into play, since to have consistent loudness, stuff panned to the extreme sides needs to be louder than stuff panned to the center, because without applying a specific panning law the stuff panned to the center will be considerably louder . . . ]

Image
Left Channel Panned Extreme Far-Right, Right Channel Panned Extreme Far-Left

For sure!

In hindsight, I might have discovered this 5 to 7 years earlier if I had taken the time to read the manual, but for the most part reading manuals is not very high on the list of "Things To Do" here in the sound isolation studio, which in some respects causes delays in discovering apparently truly obvious stuff but in other respects tends to map to devising alternative ways to do otherwise simple tasks, which can be quite useful, although it is a bit like learning how to box with only one hand because even though you have two hands (a) someone gave you only one boxing glove and (b) it never occurred to you that boxing gloves actually come in pairs, really . . .

Really! :lol:

So, as yet another stellar instance of serendipity as a reward for taking the time to explore the way "M+S" works in vast detail, this conversation and the associated research led to solving two of the problems that have been bothering me for quite a while, (a) how to preview a stereo track in monaural in Digital Performer and (b) how to do true stereo panning in Digital Performer . . .

And in the grand scheme of everything, when this is combined with the progress I am making on devising a full-range studio monitor system, which includes a keen focus on phase alignment, this maps to making significant progress here in the sound isolation studio, which is fabulous . . .

Fabulous! :ugeek:
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